Episode 10: The Sinclair Method with Katie Lain

Episode 10: The Sinclair Method with Katie Lain

In this episode we meet Katie Lain, an advocate and mentor for the Sinclair Method, which is a means for treating Alcohol Use Disorder (AUD) based on the principal of pharmacological extinction. Those who use this method to treat AUD will take the drug Naltrexone one hour prior to drinking. Naltrexone is an opiate blocker that over time removes one’s craving for alcohol.

Katie started with TSM in August of 2017, and she found the experience to be personally transformative. Realizing that more people need to know about this method for treating AUD, Katie bravely went public with her story. Through her YouTube Channel and website, Katie has not only helped spread the word about TSM, but she has built a supportive community for others.

Links to Resources

Embody Daily Website

Embody Daily YouTube Channel 

Claudia Christian’s TED Talk

One Little Pill 

C3 Foundation 

“The Cure for Alcoholism, by Roy Eskapa, PhD


00:00 John: My Secular Sobriety is a podcast that gives voice to the secular person overcoming addiction and unhealthy behaviors through reason, learning, and community.


00:18 John: Today, we’ll be talking about The Sinclair Method, or TSM, which is a means for treating alcohol use disorder through the principle of pharmacological extinction. Those who use The Sinclair Method will take the pill Naltrexone one hour before drinking. Naltrexone is an opiate blocker that over time will remove the craving for alcohol, allowing people to return to normal drinking provided they continue to take Naltrexone an hour before they begin to drink.

00:45 John: A good percentage of those who use The Sinclair Method will find they have no desire for alcohol at all and may abstain altogether. Our guest today is Katie Lain, she’s an advocate and mentor for The Sinclair Method, and you can learn more about her at her website, embodydaily.com. I would also encourage you to subscribe to her YouTube channel where you’ll find videos that she’s produced on the subject, and discover an ever-growing community of people who use The Sinclair Method to remove alcohol as a problem from their lives.

01:14 John: Hi, Katie, thank you so much for joining me and…

01:18 Katie: Absolutely, yeah, thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

01:22 John: Did I do a good job of briefly describing The Sinclair Method? 

01:25 Katie: Yeah, you’ve described it very succinctly and that’s essentially the ABCs of how it works when someone has never heard about it and they want to understand just the very basics of what this method is, and I’m happy obviously to dive into more of the fundamentals of it as well as we get through this.

01:42 John: Well, you have done a lot of work on this. I first learned about The Sinclair Method, I think it was maybe about five years ago, and there wasn’t a lot out there on YouTube or any place that talked about The Sinclair Method. I met a mutual friend, Gary Bell, who taught me about The Sinclair Method, and shared with me his experience with it, and he told me about you, which was a great find. As I started reading your website and watching your videos, I was pretty impressed with just the body of material that you’ve put out there. It’s pretty incredible.

02:17 Katie: Well, thank you. You know, as you said, there wasn’t a lot of content five years ago and when I discovered this method about two-and-a-half years ago, coming up on three years, there wasn’t very much content and so I was kind of the mindset that if this works for me, it’s my duty to share it, and that’s where my channel started.

02:35 John: Well, let’s get into the story, and what better place to begin than the beginning. Can you go into a little bit about your story with alcohol use disorder, and how you came upon The Sinclair Method? 

02:47 Katie: Sure, absolutely. So, I fell into alcohol dependence in my early 20s. I was someone who, even on my 21st birthday, I didn’t like drinking. I remember people trying to give me shots of alcohol, and I was giving them away and just sipping on a light beer. So I didn’t really care for alcohol when I first started drinking, but what happened was I happened to get into a relationship with someone who I’d consider an alcoholic in my early 20s and I kind of picked up his behavior of drinking, so really started partying hard and drinking every day, and drinking till blackout. And at the time I was of the mindset that, oh, this is just a phase, this is what people do at my age, I’ll get over it in a few years or whatever.

03:31 Katie: And what I realized was after a few years of heavy drinking that I had a really hard time quitting and I was trying to take breaks, whether it be not drinking during the week, or taking a month of sobriety, and I noticed that I was battling alcohol cravings and was obsessively thinking about alcohol essentially every waking minute. And I would just immediately as soon as the break was over, sometimes I wouldn’t even make it a full week or a full month, I would immediately go back and start bingeing and the cycle would serve itself all over again. And so that’s when I realized, oh, no, I think I have a problem. Like I was drinking every day, I had a really hard time taking a break, I was craving it when I wasn’t drinking.

04:14 Katie: So, this cycle kind of went on for about… It was a ten-year, about a decade-long battle of struggling with alcohol dependence, where I’d kind of try to quit or cut down, and I might be successful, but I was essentially using a lot of will power and again, really battling those cravings and being triggered and feeling like I was missing out on not being able to drink if I was trying to abstain, and a part of that too was I couldn’t moderate my drinking. If I was going to have… If my intention was to have two glasses of wine, more often than not, I’d have a bottle or more. And even if I was successful with moderating it, it would be white-knuckled and I’d be like, “Okay I’m not going to have anymore.” And the bottle would be in the kitchen and I’d be obsessing about it and just doing everything in my willpower not to have more.

05:00 Katie: So yeah, like many people who struggle with this, I was looking for a solution, something that might be able to help, because I had tried everything. I did try AA a handful of times, not a bunch, but the meetings in my area, I was in my 20s, and it was a bunch of much older men, basically, and I was like, “This isn’t my crowd.” So, I tried AA, I tried spiritual retreats, meditation, countless hours of inspirational talks and other groups and Buddhism and other spiritual communities. I tried everything to try to quit or moderate, nothing worked. And that’s when I was on YouTube, really just searching for people who had stories of success with moderate or quitting alcohol, and lo and behold, I found Claudia Christian, the actress who’s been a huge advocate for The Sinclair Method, I found her TED Talk and that got me started on this method about almost three years ago.

05:55 John: What’s your experience been with it? 

05:57 Katie: Absolutely life-changing, like it’s hard to describe, and I’m still at a loss this far into it, how much it’s changed my drinking. It was a gradual experience from… It took me a year, essentially, to quit drinking, because I did go sober. Like you were talking about early in the podcast, I was one of those people that I ended up going sober, because I just got to the point where alcohol brought me nothing good anymore, and I genuinely was repulsed by it and genuinely preferred sobriety, and so it took me a year to get to that place. Other people, it takes much longer, other people choose to moderate with it, but for me basically from the get-go, it was so empowering because I was able to, for the first time in a decade, I was able to control my drinking and in a way that wasn’t obsessively using my willpower.

06:44 Katie: It was like, no, I had two glasses of wine, I don’t need anymore, I’m good. And I could go days without drinking, and I noticed I wasn’t craving it when I wasn’t drinking, it was just like my world started to change. My mind started to expand far beyond this trap of alcohol addiction.

07:00 John: I almost want to cry when I hear you. I was 19 years old when I first started having problems with alcohol. By the time I was 25, my life was absolutely impossible and there weren’t a lot of options available at that time. And I ended up in AA and found myself incredibly uncomfortable that I thought that was the only place I could go. If this had been there for me, it would have been a game-changer at that time, I just know it would have been. And I think it’s fantastic that we actually have this option available for people today.

07:34 Katie: Me too, and I echo what you said. It breaks my heart that it’s not more widely known, and I get emails every day from people asking me, why isn’t this more well-known? I accidentally found your videos or found this article. And it’s just slowly but surely, especially with the advocacy work of Claudia Christian, with her non-profit. And that’s my intention behind the work I do to spread the word about this. And so yeah, it’s getting to be more well-known, but it definitely needs to be much more of a mainstream option.

08:08 John: Especially in the United States, I think, because in the United States, doctors will use Naltrexone, but they don’t necessarily use it as it’s intended with The Sinclair Method. And I’m wondering if you know if more doctors around today in the United States are aware of The Sinclair Method and will prescribe it? 

08:28 Katie: Well, there are, to some extent. So, Claudia’s non-profit, c3foundation.org, she has a directory of doctors who are specifically familiar with using naltrexone in The Sinclair Method. Because some doctors will prescribe it, but it’s prescribed daily with abstinence to help with cravings. I would say more often than not anecdotally the stories I hear from people as they try to go to their general practitioner and more often than not, they’re refused because their doctor doesn’t, they don’t have a lot of training in medical school about addiction, as far as I know from all the doctors I’ve talked to. And they don’t feel comfortable giving someone a prescription and telling them to drink if they have a problem.

09:07 John: They don’t understand the whole principle of the pharmacological extinction and how it blocks the craving completely? 

09:14 Katie: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And some doctors are open-minded and they take the… because there’s lots of research out there about it if they want to just take time to look into it, but it’s hit and miss, some doctors are open-minded, some are absolutely, no, go to AA, essentially.

09:29 John: Which is bad, because AA isn’t treatment.

09:32 Katie: Exactly. It’s group support.

09:34 John: The Sinclair Method truly is treatment. It’s treatment, and you’re combining support behind it, with all the work that you do, which is cool.

09:41 Katie: Yeah, and it’s evidence-based, it’s been tested and proven highly effective for most people. The efficacy rate is about 78%. So yeah, it is treatment and it’s an effective treatment.

09:53 John: When you go through it, is it like an immediate thing? So, on the first day that I would use Naltrexone, I take it an hour before I go out to drink. On that first day will I feel that I can drink normally, or will it take some time? 

10:09 Katie: That’s a great question, and I think it’s a really important one because it’s truly different for everybody. Some people will notice an immediate change, where they’re like, I would normally drink two bottles of wine and tonight I had a glass. Oh, my God, this is amazing. And other people report that they didn’t notice a difference and is this going to work for me. And just because it doesn’t work the first time or the first month or a few months even doesn’t mean it’s not working, everybody responds to the medication differently. And so, in my experience, I noticed a difference right away from day one. I know plenty of people who don’t. However, a year in, they’re drinking 50% less than they were.

10:50 Katie: So it’s different for everybody, and it’s important for people, I’d say, to not have expectations going into it, because I’ve seen people want to give up after a few times, but I see a lot of physicians recommend, you need to give it at least a solid nine months of compliance with the medication and having these pharmacological extinction sessions to know, is this going to work for you. And as you know, drinking is complex, it’s not just as simple as, oh, I need to reduce how much I’m going to drink. It has to do with, why are we drinking, dealing with the emotional aspect of it, the triggers, the traumas we’re covering up, all of those things as they come up.

11:25 Katie: And the habit of it too. I think that’s something people don’t realize a lot is, yes, it’s an addiction, but it’s also an ingrained habit. So, I’ve seen people who are on Naltrexone and they’re not craving it, they don’t want to drink, yet they still take the pill and drink every day, because they don’t know what else to do. So, you’ve got to build up a life outside of that, and that takes some… That takes some effort. So yeah.

11:46 John: There’s a lot of social aspects and socializing that’s connected to alcohol in particular. Something cool that’s going on now which I also would have loved when I was in my 20s. There are coming up all the time alcohol-free bars and non-alcoholic beers. And I think society as a whole is getting a little bit better at understanding that alcohol might not always be such a healthy way to socialize and so forth. I mean, especially if you go into excess with it.

12:15 Katie: Yeah, so you’re so right about that. I couldn’t agree more. It’s amazing, a lot of these bars, they have healthy concoctions that are like nutrient-rich, and, yeah, I see a lot of younger people realizing that alcohol isn’t what we’ve kind of made it out to be, and so that’s exciting to see.

12:32 John: And people are understanding too that alcohol use disorder falls on a spectrum, it’s not like so black and white, and it has always been presented, black and white. And that was my problem when I was 19 years old, and I thought that I might be having a problem with alcohol, I would tell myself, I’m too young. This can’t be. To be an alcoholic, I’ve got to be this older person, like I am now. [laughter] And that wasn’t actually the case, because it truly is on a spectrum. And boy, I was one of those people who started early, and it got bad early, and in a way, I’m kind of lucky that I was able to address it at that point in my life.

13:09 Katie: Got it out of the way.

13:11 John: Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s interesting, and I can understand how it would be different for different people. I know even like with anti-depressant medication, they will tell you, like I take an anti-depressant, they tell you that it takes some time for it to work. In my case, I almost noticed it immediately when I first went on it.

13:26 Katie: Oh, yeah? 

13:26 John: Yeah, yeah.

13:27 Katie: Yeah, I think that’s an important point. I just want to say that you bring up the alcohol use disorder, because I get a lot of emails too, from people, like am I bad enough, is my drinking bad enough to go on this method? And for me, that’s the beauty of it, because it’s really up to you. Somebody might be drinking a bottle of wine a day and feel totally fine with it, and not want to change a thing. Another person might feel like this is hindering my life and I know I can do better. And so, it’s totally up to you. And I’ve seen people who are, they binge once a month and that’s problematic for them, and then people who are bingeing every day or every three days. So it allows someone to take this method that doesn’t force you to quit alcohol, it just helps you to drink at a level that you’re happy with, and so it’s not about someone telling you are an alcoholic, you need help, it’s saying, do I want to make changes in how my relationship to alcohol is impacting my life? 

14:18 John: I think it’s nice that you have the power of choice in deciding where you’re going to go with it. And I’m wondering how many people will continue drinking normally, as opposed to those that just say they don’t want it anymore, and they just stop? 

14:30 Katie: You know, it’s really interesting. I host groups weekly where folks come in join who are on this method from around the world. And I think I would say most people, just from my personal experience and anecdotally, most people can continue to drink moderately on this method, whether that be at weddings, a couple of times a year, or only on the weekends, or a couple of times a week. I would say, most people who are on this method a few years they are drinking moderately and very rarely and saving it for a special occasion. There are, I think, a smaller percentage of people or maybe I just don’t interact with them because they don’t drink anymore. And so, The Sinclair Method is a moot point for them, but I see more people who maintain moderate drinking using Naltrexone as opposed to just giving it up for good.

15:14 Katie: But for me it was so easy to give it up because it was like I was returned to the place I was in before I even ever had my first sip of alcohol, where I forgot what it was like to enjoy it and be drunk, and I didn’t really care for the taste anymore and so I just, I was easily able to like, okay, I want to cut this out of my life now, it’s doing me no good. And mind you, that was a year of, and continuing to do a lot of inner work and healing and all of that, but it makes it so much easier when you don’t desire something. I equate it to my least favorite food now. A bottle of wine can be on the table and I don’t want it. If someone offers it to me, I’m like no, thank you. I don’t miss it. It’s like a food I don’t enjoy anymore in a sense, so it’s freeing, I can say that.

15:55 John: I was watching one of your videos and after I watched the video, I changed the description of the podcast here, and I think I’m going to keep that. I used to say, and this is a fairly new podcast, I’d say My Secular Sobriety, an Addiction Recovery Podcast. And now I’ve changed that, because of the word recovery, and so now I say, “It gives voice to the secular person overcoming addiction and unhealthy behaviors through reason, learning, and community.”

16:20 Katie: I love it.

16:21 John: I’m kind of big on language, because my experience when I was first getting sober, and I did it through AA, was learning to conform. I conformed to what everybody else was doing, I was talking their talk, and it took me a long time to retrain myself to talk like a normal person in my language. I’m not powerless, I don’t need a higher power. And now this whole concept of recovery. What are your feelings about that, and that word, and how it applies to people that are dealing with alcohol use disorder or any other addiction? 

16:55 Katie: Yeah, I just want to say that’s interesting. You’ve kind of given me some food for thought in how you realized you were being more conforming in your recovery or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, that’s interesting. I hadn’t thought about it like that. But for me, for recovery, I never felt like I was in recovery from this method because I felt like I recovered because I wasn’t… Again, I wasn’t battling the cravings anymore, I never identified as an alcoholic, though I will call myself an alcoholic, just to be clear, because that’s the language we use and people are like, alcohol use disorder, what…

17:28 John: They don’t know what it is.

17:30 Katie: Yeah, but I do think language is a big deal, but as far as considering myself in recovery, in a sense, I just felt like that was a ball and chain I was having to tote around and something I was having to take with me for the rest of my life. Like, oh, I’m in recovery, and again I just felt like I was healed and had overcome the addiction and, yeah, I didn’t feel the need to identify as someone in recovery, because that problem was no longer a part of who I was anymore. And yeah, it’s kind of just felt like it was putting me in a weak place versus an empowered place of feeling like I’m well, I’m healed. Sure, I have free choice, I can go out and get a bottle of whiskey and drink it, but I could also go get some heroin, but I’m not going to do that, you know? 

18:17 John: It’s almost like it’s an additional stigma.

18:20 Katie: Exactly.

18:22 John: It sets you apart from all other human beings who also have the same kinds of emotional problems or whatever, but it sets you apart from all other human beings that you have this unique problem, that you will have to be in recovery for the rest of your life to deal with this problem.

18:37 Katie: Yeah, and I think a lot about weight loss like if someone’s lost 20 pounds, they’re not like, “I’m a formerly obese person or I’m recovering from a weak… ” No, I lost weight and look at who I am now, and all we have is this moment. And so, it’s like I’m recovered, and anything’s possible, you know. Of course, we could relapse or whatever, but for me, I honestly feel like I’m relapse-proof because of this method. Like, I could, if I wanted to drink, which I honestly haven’t had a desire in a year-and-a-half, but I could take the Naltrexone, and I would comply, I would never swear I was, but yeah. So, I appreciate you saying it is this additional stigma and label to put on things. But for me, that’s, yeah, it’s a part of my past, it’s not who I am anymore. I love talking about it and sharing my story and spreading the word about this, but yeah, I don’t consider myself in recovery.

19:24 Katie: So, I’m not even really sure what that means to me anyway.

19:27 John: What it means anymore, I don’t know. I don’t know how, whoever came up with it, but yeah, see, there are all kinds of words that are used by people who have had problems with alcohol or any other addiction and have come out of it, and it’s usually language that has been imposed on them through society, through the 12-step programs. That’s the language, I’m telling you, I am still retraining my brain to talk different, to talk differently about it.

20:00 Katie: How long were you in a 12-step program for, if I may ask? 

20:02 John: I’ve been sober for 32 years.

20:04 Katie: Wow.

20:04 John: Yeah, I was going to traditional AA meetings for 25 years.

20:09 Katie: Wow, okay, yeah.

20:10 John: And at around the 25-year mark, I came to terms and realized that I was an atheist, which isn’t a big deal unless you’re in AA. [laughter] So I was having a hard time with it, I felt like I was walking on eggshells, I couldn’t, I was already kind of breaking out of the conformity that I had been in for so long. I realize now that the conformity was my way to survive at the time.

20:42 Katie: Interesting.

20:44 John: I was a young person, I didn’t have anything, I was afraid, and some people seemed to have an answer, and I just felt like, okay, I’ll become like that.

20:58 Katie: Wow.

21:00 John: But now it is funny that it’s taken me so long to kind of break out of that mold.

21:06 Katie: Well, it’s a powerful story you’re telling now with your podcast and everything. Because I think that, not only in AA groups, but I think any group we can just conform to fit in, and that is giving me something to think about too.

21:18 John: Yeah, it is important that I’m learning just to be myself and to… It is very empowering to say, okay, I am myself, I am me, I’m not necessarily like everybody else out there. I do have a lot in common with people that have also had this problem, but we’re not all the same.

21:36 Katie: Exactly.

21:36 John: It’s not like you have this personality that makes a person an addict. I don’t believe that. I do think that there are… If you’re like a certain type of addict, like addicted to gambling or addicted to heroin or even addicted to alcohol, there are certain aspects of that behavior that caused unique problems or unique situations, I guess, that you, later on, do have to deal with. But for the most part, I think we’re like any other human being, we will have problems based upon just how we grew up or how our brain chemistry was organized.

22:14 Katie: Absolutely.

22:15 John: Anyway, let’s talk about what you’re doing now with your advocacy work and the community that you have with Embody Daily.

22:25 Katie: Sure, so I started Embody Daily two-and-a-half years ago, basically a month after I started on Naltrexone. It started as my YouTube channel, Embody Daily, and then I created a website and now host weekly group calls with people and have volunteers that help me host those as well. They all take place online through Zoom. And then I coach people one-on-one as well, just if people kind of find me, I don’t promote it, but if someone’s looking for support, I offer that. But, yeah, I started just documenting my journey month-over-month. I was hesitant to get that out there in the public eye because I wasn’t open about my alcohol problem at all, even my husband didn’t know I had a problem. He knew I liked to drink, but I hid it a lot from him and everyone, and I was in denial like a lot of people are.

23:16 Katie: And so, for me to go public with it, I was like, oh, God. But I felt the need to just get this message out there because if this was working for me, I felt like it would be a terrible thing to keep it a secret. And so just started documenting my journey and then also started incorporating interviews with others who have been on the method and had success with it and even I’ve interviewed one person who didn’t have success with it and his reasons for that.

23:42 Katie: Yeah, just kind of as I went through the method and got through my success with it and achieved sobriety, my videos shifted into more my insights from my experience, and challenges and hurdles that are on this method, because even though it’s miraculous and amazing in how it works, there are challenges that I think are surprising for people, and breaking the habit is one of them, and getting to the bottom of why we’re drinking is another because sometimes people can rely on the pill to do all the work.

24:11 Katie: And so that’s been my work with my YouTube channel and that has transformed into growing a community online of people who I get emails all the time, messages from people saying, “Oh, my God, I relate so much.” Everything in life is normal for them otherwise, they’re healthy, they’re happy, they have this and that, but this drinking problem, or struggling with trying to quit or cut back and so slowly but truly this community has built with people who are having success on this method, and seeing themselves go from really heavy drinkers to someone who’s able to control their drinking or able to give it up for good. So, it’s built, yeah, over the last few years. And it’s been amazing to connect with people and get the word out about this life-saving method.

24:57 John: It’s nice because you have a combination of two really powerful tools. You’ve got, first of all, a scientifically-proven way of removing the problem of alcohol addiction, but then you have the support of other people who have had kind of a similar issue that you can talk to and relate to with one another. I think that’s just as important.

25:24 Katie: Yeah, because there are very nuanced experiences to this method, and I think that’s what I’ve tried to bring out in a lot of my videos is it’s not just A + B = C. Sure, take the pill an hour before you drink, and do that every time, but there are so many more nuanced things. If you’re drinking at home every night and you’re taking the pill you might find that you don’t want to drink at home anymore, because you’ve had enough pharmacological extinction sessions with that. But you go out with friends and you get too drunk, and you’re like, oh, no, this isn’t working, but no, you were just in a different environment. Maybe old habits are kicking in and so you’ve got to have these extinction sessions many times in all the different ways that you drink, so that you can kind of unlearn that behavior pattern that was ingrained in you for so long.

26:05 Katie: And so, it is very nuanced and it’s amazing for people to be able to speak from their own experience on what’s worked for them and what hasn’t. So, yeah.

26:14 John: And then you also have coaching sessions that you make available on your site.

26:18 Katie: Yeah, and so those are one-on-one sessions, and so it’s just an opportunity for people to come and ask questions and get guidance from me wherever they’re at on the method. I feel like my skill set is really in digging in deep, and asking them questions because a lot of people might find that they’re just stuck or they’ve seen success but they’re drinking is going back up or they just want to know the basics of how to get started. How do I do it for the first 30 days? And so, I make those available to people who just want the help and I charge $30 for a half-hour, $60 for an hour. But I always say if finances are an issue, I can work with people. And I also do emails, obviously, for free, so people can always email me with the questions.

27:06 John: I bet this is almost like a full-time job. I bet that this keeps you busy.

27:11 Katie: It does keep me busy and I have a full-time job. So, I would like to do more with it. I haven’t made as many videos lately and I just, I don’t do much with the coaching unless someone happens to find my website and book a session, because it is, it’s a lot of work and I feel like I’m always behind on emails and behind on YouTube stuff, so… But I love it. So, it’s a labor of love in a sense and I wish I could devote more time to it. I just at the time, I don’t have time because I have a…

27:38 John: Sure, you have other things you’ve got to do.

27:40 Katie: Yeah, yeah.

27:42 John: Well, I’ve been podcasting for a while and I love podcasting, I’m a bit of a geek with all the technology and everything, the screen behind me and so forth. I just… I’m just a total nerd about it, but I’m just now getting into YouTube, and we just started this YouTube channel, and so I love checking out all the other YouTube channels, and yours is good. Was this the first time that you have ever done YouTube channels and YouTube videos? 

28:05 Katie: It wasn’t so I… Very amateurly, I did. I honestly, like I’m looking at your set-up, and I could do much better with mine but, again, I’m like, I’m just going to do the best I can. Like if I make it too complicated and I have to edit too much, it’s never going to get posted. But I had a vintage company online, a vintage retail shop for a few years, and I would make videos, which I… That YouTube channel still exists, and I have videos about handbags and old leathers and cleaning them. But that’s where it started and then… Yeah, I started making videos.

28:38 John: Well, that’s interesting. So, you already had the underlying talent and then you just kind of use that with this advocacy.

28:45 Katie: I guess so. I felt compelled to make like some people do written blogs, but I just felt really to put a video out there, and it was gnawing at me until I would do it. It was like every day it was you’ve got to get that video; you’ve got to… And so, I’ve always felt inspired. I always make the video just when I am inspired to do it.

29:03 John: Well, we can finish up by just going over some resources that are out there, and you probably know some more than I do. One of the first, I guess, that I found was the C3 Foundation, and they’ve improved their website, by the way. I think when I first discovered it, it was more of a forum, and there was some information here or there, but now it’s like, wow, it’s very well done professionally, and it’s got a lot of good information. And then, of course, Claudia Christian’s film, One Little Pill, which is well done.

29:33 Katie: Yeah. And so, the C3 Foundation, they have a Europe site and then they have a site for the US, and they have updated their sites this past year, so they look bunch better. And Claudia Christian, that’s her non-profit, and so she’s also done the film and she has her TED Talk, which a lot of people find and that’s how they discover the method. It’s called How I Overcame Alcoholism, which is all about this method, and she’s also coming out with a book later this year called Journeys, which is people sharing their stories and Gary’s in it, I’m in it, about how we overcame alcoholism through this method.

30:08 John: You sent me a preview of his story. I’m actually, I’m looking forward to this book coming out. I think it’ll be pretty popular; I think that… And I think it’s a good thing to do, it’s nice, I like books and it’s nice to sit down and read a book and relate to the people, to different people’s stories from around the world.

30:26 Katie: Yeah, it is. And I mean, another book, The Cure for Alcoholism, by Dr. Roy Eskapa, which is all about The Sinclair Method, and it goes into the scientific research behind it and the nuances of it.

30:38 John: And that was the original, that’s where it all started, with him, isn’t it? 

30:42 Katie: Yeah, he knew Dr. David Sinclair, and he got the word out about this method. So, it’s a really helpful resource. And I have a PDF copy that he’s permitted to send, so if people can’t afford the book, I can always email the PDF.

30:53 John: And then, of course, there’s your website and YouTube channel, which I think is probably, if there’s any place to start, that’s probably the best place to start, I think. There’s a lot of good information there, and if you… Particularly if you want to just talk to people, have a community of people that are doing this, I think it’s an excellent resource.

31:11 Katie: Yeah, yeah, the weekly group calls are amazing. We usually have about 20 or so people that join every week, and then there’s also, there are Facebook groups for The Sinclair Method, there’s a couple of different Facebook groups that people can join if they search for The Sinclair Method or they can contact me and I can direct them there. And there’s Reddit group, Medications_Alcoholism I think is what it’s called. And then there is Option Saves Lives, which is an online forum. I think the C3 Foundation started it, but it’s more of a forum for people to post. I kind of always get a little bit lost in there. It’s overwhelming with information, but if you want to dive into people’s posts and information, it’s a good place to go.

31:49 John: Well, thank you so much. I think we’re fortunate today to have these options. There’s a lot more than we have ever had before. I think that people are becoming smarter now about understanding addiction and it’s not so black and white. I hope that it will become less stigmatized, and I think as when more and more people like you come out and talk independently about it from your own experience, I think that’s powerful and that will have a multiplying effect. There will be more Katie people like you coming out. Yeah, so it’s pretty cool.

32:24 Katie: I think so too. We got to get rid of the stigma because I think most people that are struggling are just everyday people who you’d have no idea they have a problem, that they feel alone and they’re suffering. And so, thanks to you for doing the work you’re doing as well to raise awareness about different methods and just talk about options outside of the traditional AA 12 steps.

32:44 John: Yeah, okay, well, I’m going to sing us out. I might eventually want to get some better music than this, I don’t know.


32:53 Katie: It sounds good to me.

32:56 John: Thank you for listening to another episode of My Secular Sobriety, and thank you, Katie Lain, for visiting us and informing us about The Sinclair Method, and I encourage everybody again to visit her website, embodydaily.com, and also her YouTube channel. Thank you.

33:14 John: Thank you so much.

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